Oh Drew. I too think understanding has come to a standstill. It's been swell! See ya in a few days. Maybe then we'll have more luck.

I see we're going in circles here, so I will simply end my part of it with two simple comments. Zach, no amount of money will ever be enough to help those people, they'd never see a dime unless you destroyed every last Arafat and bin Laden in the game. Why, because they are helpess sheep wallowing in the mass opiate of organized religion under brutal chieftans. Amy, call me when you have proof that G.W. had people dunked live into acid like Hussein did and I will say that America has no regard for human liberties. For the goodness sake Amy, the radicals of Islam don't even treat their women like people, they treat them like cattle. Can you honestly say they are better than us?

The main problem I have with your argument Drew is that you claim that the Russian peasants sent their sons off to war with no thought as to the government spinning lies. You say that the Russian peasants sent their sons off to conquest and destroy because they did not want to see the truth and for that reason you say they are just as guilty. The only reason you can say those things is because you live in a country where you have the freedom of speech and you live in a country where your information is not controlled by the government. Basically the only way you can say that is because you did not live in Russia in the 1950's in a society of fear. Basically I do not think you have any grounds to make a comment like that. Not to mention that history might have been very different if those sons whom you say are just as guilty for crimes against humanity had not been our allies in WWII to defeat Hitlers fascist regime.
You say that we are fighting a war to end Islamic radicals but that is an impossibility. FOr each terrorist we take down 10 more take his place. Our actions have done nothing but fuel the fire of hatred against us. If we want a real solution we should look to what has worked in the past. Turkey once had a great suicide bombing problem and do you know what they did to solve it? They got smart and realized that you fight terrorists by supporting the decaying community that spawns them. By redistributing a large amount of their budget to invest in the broken communities and giving them a voice Turkey effectively empowered a broken community to take a stand against terror and erased the conditions in which it thrived. This is the hope I have for Iraq. Terror will not be stopped by imposing control over a people, but only by giving people a sense of personal responsibility and something to be proud of. When people are treated like they are helpless they act like they are helpless. People must have a stake in their communities. When Big Brother America comes in by itself antagonizes the international community things will never improve. This is especially the case when they know that the number one reason we are there is to serve our own national interest.
I cannot gain another persons respect if I look down on that person and treat them like a child. I cannot gain another persons respect by saying that I am always right and you are always wrong. We must lead by example and not use another country as a battle ground to fight our personal war against terror while pushing the people who live there aside.

oh boy, i should check this more often

let's have a little fun, k?

Maybe those Russian peasants sent there sons to the frontlines as soldiers and KGB to fight terrible wars of conquest with the rest of the world with no thought of lies their government was spinning. Maybe the same was true for the Germans citizens and the concentration camps of WWII. However, if they did not know about and stop those things it is because they did not want to know! They both succumbed to mob mentality in order to block out the truth about what was happening in their respective countries and in doing so made themselves as guilty as the perpetrators of the crimes against humanity

Maybe those American joes sent there sons to the frontlines as soldiers to fight terrible wars of conquest without the rest of the world with no thought of lies their government was spinning. Maybe the same was true for the Germans citizens and the concentration camps of WWII. However, if they did not know about and stop those things it is because they did not want to know! They both succumbed to mob mentality in order to block out the truth about what was happening in their respective countries and in doing so made themselves as guilty as the perpetrators of the crimes against humanity

Of a human being it is way too much to ask, Zach. Especially of people in general and how they cower in the putrid ignorance of group mentality and become the mob. Therefore, the good individual must have the courage to cut off analysis of evil at a certain point, call it evil, and then destroy it without reservation. It is in that truth where good survives. Maybe those Russian peasants sent there sons to the frontlines as soldiers and KGB to fight terrible wars of conquest with the rest of the world with no thought of lies their government was spinning. Maybe the same was true for the Germans citizens and the concentration camps of WWII. However, if they did not know about and stop those things it is because they did not want to know! They both succumbed to mob mentality in order to block out the truth about what was happening in their respective countries and in doing so made themselves as guilty as the perpetrators of the crimes against humanity. Since the U.S. has stressed individual good over conformist wrong, we are right over the real form of communist Russia and facisim of Hitler all the way to the Islamic fundamentalism of today. We are right and they are all wrong. Why, because we believe in the individual good of one another and they never did and they never will! We are fighting a war to end Islamic radicals who have killed innocent people, sold drugs, and managed to violate the rights of every citizen in every country who embraces their dogma. Plus, we are desperately trying to show the people of the Middle East that they do not need despotism and fundamentalism to govern themselves anymore. IS THAT NOT A GOOD THING?!

Very true Drew, and I would never even think about saying what the Russians did was good and what we did was evil. That's the whole point. We have to understand that when we create pure dicotamies such as, we are good and all our actions are good and "they" are evil and all their actions are evil we are just setting our selfs up for self-righteous violence. Building bombs that look like toys is obviously a horrendous act. But we must also understand that we Americans have commited many horrendous acts ourselves. I never have said that America is evil and I never will, because that defeats the very purpose of what I'm trying to say. America has done many many beautiful things in this world to which I am very proud of.

You said that when we "dilute good and evil to the philisophical point...we lose our grip on reality." It seems to me that when we use them as absolute labels we simply distort reality. Is it not better in tune with reality to understand whether Russian or American, Palastinian or Israeli we are all human beings and thus cannot be characterized as simply "good" or "evil".

You claim that American's represented "good" and Soviets "evil" in the Cold War, yet 90 percent of Soviets were peasants living on plots of dirt who were told and believed that equality among men was truly a just way to live. How can you call those millions of people evil when they were simply searching for the same ideals we claim to be our inaliable rights. True, they were under the Iron thumb of a corrupt government but I would not and will not call them evil. Sounds more like they were the true victims of Soviet "communism" if you want to call it that. While we spread fear among ourselves they lived in fear every day.

Bush's Policy is national interest afterall. National interest lets us place labels like "good" and "evil" as we choose while "right" and "wrong" get kicked to the back seat.

But I'm not even going to pass a judgement on that policy. Instead I say let actions be seen for what they are, actions. If I hit say...Vice President Cheney in the face, I'd guess that you would judge that to be a bad action. But would it mean that I am a bad person? There is always more than what we see. Categorizing is part of our natural cognitive process as humans but it is important that we recognize that that is exactly what we are doing. I am not saying that if a Palastinian becomes a suicide bomber in the name of reclaiming his homeland it is a justified action. But it does prove my point that by claiming his actions in the name of "patriotism" he uses the label "patriot" for his own justification. We use such labels for our own ends as well.

However, If we can stop blindly allowing labels for our own justifications and start questioning the reasoning behind someone elses use of such labeling then we may get more of an insight into some kind of solution.
I don't want judgements all I want is an honest analysis of the variables. Perhaps that is just too much to ask.

Alright, Zach I'll give credit where credit is do. Ghandi built a nation! Do not the great and good achievements of a life warrant us calling it such despite infinately smaller errors? If we dilute good and evil to the philosophical point where they are meaningless terms then we lose all grip on reality and order! If we get to that point we start saying the Palestinians are cowardly thugs who bomb children but because they say they fight for a homeland for the refugees they're legitimate. If you don't think the Cold War was good versus evil Zach then I have some news for you and all others who say the U.S. is always the bloodthirsty war monger. When we invaded Afghanistan in after the 11th we bombed the Taliban and Alqueda while minimizing civilian causalties. When the Russians marched in during the Cold War, they built bombs to look like children's toys and ROUTINELY pillaged, burned, murdered, and raped the noncombatants. Now there is no one, not Ben, Dan, or you Zach who can tell me that what we did in Afghanistan was evil and what the Russians did was good.

Drew, don't you understand. First off, many Israeli children are taught to hate the Palastinians as much as the Palastinians are taught to hate the Israeli's. I know this because I've been there and seen the hatred. Every time the news headlines read Israeli's kill two Hamas leaders what you will find is a few blocks of a palastinian neighborhoods demolished. Hundreds of Palastinian's that have nothing to do with Hamas left without homes mourning the loss of loved ones that were seen as collateral damage for the sake of killing two men.

In opposing the word "patriot" I am not inserting extremist nationalists in it's place. EIther label is misleading. I try to look at men such as Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Lincoln etc... for what they have done. They have all done great things for our world today but I refuse to call them patriots because that is a loaded word that lets us look past everything they've done with instant Justification. For instance, Ghandi let his family starve to uphold his hunger strike. If I heard that someone today let his family starve because he was fighting for a cause I would not praise him. Ghandi was an amazing man but like they say, history's eyes are clouded by the present. Nelson Mandela was at the time fighting against the governmental authority. Dick Cheney refused to support to Mandela because he said he was a terrorist!
Basically, I do not believe we need to label these men patriots or extremist nationalists because these labels change over time and do nothing but shade their deeds. Instead I choose to take a more balanced look at their accomplishments and marvel at what they accomplished while understanding that these things change in the perspective of time and place. If you think what we were doing in vietnam was fighting for "freedom and peace" than I believe you have truly let the "patriotic image" paint your reality. I guess I just want to look at the world paint free.
I cannot and will not Justify the acts of extremists but I cannot and will not let rhetoric force feed me absolute good and absolute evil. That's what the cold war was all about.

Let us credit men(and women:) for their deeds rather than recognizing only those deeds which fit the label we impose on them.

whoa, a discussion of world politics without me?? be still, my fast-beating heart! but, alas, i am short of time, as soon Pete & i shall be embarking on a trip west that will land us in your collective laps (get ready!). Drew, laundry: walk outside. go to where cars can drive through the building. look for the doors on either side. your keys open the one that houses laundry facilities. nice, huh? for Pete, i'll say "monkeys!!"

You see no difference between the Israelis and Palenstinians? Even though the former blows up terrorists and bulldozes their hiding spots and the latter sends brain washed fifteen year olds out to kill children with bombs? If the word patriot does not exist, then there is nothing we can credit Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, the Founding Fathers, President Lincoln, or Fredrick Douglass for. They all just fall into the category of extremist nationilsts who provoked killing. Obviously patriotism can be possible even in the midst of battle. Violence is inevitable in human life. The only thing that makes it bearable is the causes of right we fight as patriots for, and guess what? All the men I described, including the U.S. and Israel, fight for freedom and peace. The terrorists like Hamas and Hezebollah fight for chaos and hypocrisy.

I just wrote a long entry that was erased when my damn computer shut down.

The reason why Palastinians uses suicide bombers and the Israeli's do not is because the Israeli's don't need to, they have the strongest military force in the middle east. Which means that it is much easier to build a wall(if they'd check their history books they'd know that the Chinese tried that, it didn't work). Sending in tanks an heavy artillary help out as well.

Islamic Fundamentalists call a man who straps a bomb on his chest and walks on a bus a "patriot" for the same reason Israeli's call a man driving a tank over a Palastinian's house a "patriot." It helps them sleep at night. Justifying one's killing is very much a necessity when it comes to human beings and the word "patriot" seems to do that quit well. The truth is that a "patriot" who kills and oppresses, is still a killer and opressor. I do not believe in the word "patriot" because I do not believe in justifying something like that with a nifty label, no matter who uses it.

It all comes down to a sad situation of constant aggression and escalation from both sides. When children are taught to hate without need for reason it is hard to see a clear solution. Words like "partiotism" become all the justification they need. I am almost sorry that using a label like "patriot" does not ease my sadness, but then again, if it did, I would be giving in to the same illusion of righteousness that I despise so much.

Hezbollah want Islamic fundamentalism in every state, that makes them inclusive in the patriot/nationalist argument because their fighters claim to be patriotically serving their countries by turning them radically Islamic. You have to make the decision sooner or later, Amy. No, Hamas and movements like them are not patriotic and we are. The difference is that as far as I know, no American in Iraq and Afghanistan nor any Jew in Israel has gotten on a bus full of children and pacifists and yelled "ALLAH B'UAKBAR" then blown themselves up. That is the work of cowardly thugs, not patriots. So yes it is us versus them on the patriot issue. The "underdog" of a conflict is not always the patriot. Sometimes he is a murderous and barbarous thug who should be hunted down. National pride doesn't mean radical nationalism! If that's what the Europeans think of us, then they are jealous and wrong.

Let the games begin:

Hezbollah cannot be considered patriots nor nationalists, their ideology is a deranged interpretation of islamic fundamentalism. I do not consider them any more patriotic or nationalistic than the christian coliation. However, the christian coalition does not receive support from Iran and Syria. My point is this, Hezebollah has the support of nation-states, but they are not a nation of people seeking a state (like the kurds). One could argue that they support the Palastinian nation, but a Palastinian state would not end their reign of terror. Hezbollah are Islamic fundamentalists first, and will abuse Islamic teaching for their own benefit, state or no state. So, I wouldn't necessarily refer to Hezbollah, when speaking of nationalism and patriotism, but maybe I misinterpreted what you meant, we are dealin' with abstract concepts here.

Now Hamas, I would include in our nationalist/patriot debate. Hamas "burns flags from other countries, other people with bombs, and themselves in front of embassies" but their acts are in the name of a Palastinian nation-state. Do you need a border to be a nationalist? ...to be a patriot? Nations of people fighting in Bosnia, Albania, Rwanda, Israel, India, Russia, Sri Lanka, Turkey and the list goes on... fighting for a nation-state. A common territory, a common culture, a common enemy are not these bonds of nationalism the bonds of patriotism? Perhaps, patriotism is "personal risk to effect positive change in one's nation," i like that definition. But, the likes of Hamas and LITE, could say the same thing about themselves. Is it that patriotism is us and nationalism is them? It depends on what side of the fence you're standing on.

Ah! but now you're just playing the definition game!


Oh sweet sweet definitions!
How you make the world go round.
Twisting words from side to side,
Turning good intentions upside down.

Does the fact that people in Hezebollah and Hamas do not have a nation to speak of make them patriots? A nationalist is someone who burns flags from other countries, other people with bombs, and themselves in front of embassies. A patriot can be anyone from a soldier or national guardsmen serving in Iraq or a hunger striker like Bobby Sands. The difference is the willingness to take personal risk to effect positive change in one's nation. A nationalist/terrorist movement only destroys in the name of hypocrisy, example the Taliban and North Korean Government. One patriot, like Mike Spann, CIA agent who fought the scum of the Mazarif-al-Shari prison camp revolt and died can bring men like John Walker Lindh to justice thus making the world safer.

Right-o, Zach. I love my country, but I'm not going to be (publicly) arrogant about it (and sometimes foreigners, Americans included, come across as arrogant even though they don't mean too, and are thus resented for it).

Speaking of pride in one's country... I'll can't deny that I love my country. I'm a patriot, but I'm not a nationalist. Most of the world's problems are caused by nationalism. So, is patriotism just the spindoctor's name for nationalism? Is there a difference? I'm not convinced there is, but I hope so.

Ah, that makes sense, Zach. Thank you. Emily, how do we get to the laundry units? Are they in that closet to the right of the sink?

Drew, I think it has more to do with not wanting to look like a goofy tourist rather than being embarassed about ones country.

As for Pete and Emily, you two better rest up...you'll need it.

hello! Emily here. i am sitting in Pete's lap and proceed to say silly things about him. well, no. i'm having a good time in New Jersey and it's not nearly the cesspool he makes it sound like. we've been in New York 3 times now, and today was the first time that was disasterless. the first time was when i arrived after a 24-hour (late) train ride from Chicago. we ended up just missing a train, so i didn't get to his house until 1:00 at night. then, i kept myself awake so that his parents' first impression of me wasn't as a sleepy zombie. the next time, we saw the Charles Mingus Big Band (Orchestra)'s (awesome) late show.... so late, in fact, that we missed the last train to Jersey! sooooo, we stayed in Penn Station overnight and got to his house the next morning at 7:00. i fell over at that point. i think we leave for the road trip (woohooooo!!) on Thusday morning and there will be much joy and hopefully little rain. or at least less rain than there has been thus far. Pete will now say a few words: We also went to the most beautiful place in the world (Tilman Ravine) and my waterfalls and then to Virginia Beach and enjoyed them all. The Virginia Beach trip was taken with John, Liz, and Kurt, so those of you who have the pleasure of knowing them know this was an interesting trip. Derrick got towed away and held hostage by the town of Virginia beach for an hour or two. Also, we decided to go to washington d.c. at the spur of the moment and did not get back to nj until five in the morning. Emily: as you might guess, we have been having some rather irregular sleeping schedules thus far. and we will continue to do so, as John shall be demonstrating his "film expertise" (pete's quotes) for me tonight starting at 11:00. Pete has no recipes despite the fact that everyone learning recipes was his idea and his Mom knows lots of reallyreally tasty recipes. everyone should yell at him for this when we get back. Pete: Ari and Amy: you write on Blog but you no respond to plea for chance to visit. You no love me no more?

Ancient rules say hosts are supposed to be courteous to guests. I think all the rules these Europeans throw out about "not acting American" are extremely discourteous. As far as I can see here, we don't put any social restrictions on foriegners' views about their respective countries or ours when they are visiting.

One can be a proud American without having to wear an American flag and an I heart Bush shirts. In fact they tell you that you shouldn't wear clothing with English writting on it.

I am and always will be proud to be an American.

Carrie, I wish you the best. You are going to have the time of your life, I've met some of the most welcoming laid back people overseas. Do be careful, but do not be completely untrusting.

Sorry, I don't completely agree with Drew on this one, but then again I went overseas before America was an openly agressive hegemon in the world arena. Now, even though I'd like to give people the benefit of the doubt (namely, hope that they know that not all Americans agree with American foreign policy), I must admit, that if I were going overseas, I'd try not to act overly "American".